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Puerto Rican new Smoking Law
Culebra, Puerto Rico
Author: David Dupre (---.an1.ind20.da.uu.net)
Date:   03-23-07 07:02

I think I just want to puke about all the political correctness that swallowing up the world.
Puerto Rico's new smoking law came into effect this month (and it includes Culebra). In summary:

"Effective this month, visitors to Puerto Rico (and everyone else) will be banned from lighting up indoors in the U.S. Commonwealth. Puerto Rico's new indoor-smoking ban covers most indoor public spaces, including bars, restaurants, hotel lobbies and casinos. Violators face fines of up to $250 for a first offense.
Smoking in cars with children under age 13 also is prohibited under what is not only the toughest such law in the Caribbean but perhaps anywhere in the U.S. and its territories. Of course, it remains to be seen how stringently the law is actually enforced and observed..."

So far, it appears that people are taking it seriously.

Believe me, I don't like to breathe second hand smoke and many smokers are selfish about their smoking and don't consider who it affects. On the other hand, I hate it just as much when more laws are passed to protect us from ourselves. This law is the strictest I've seen concerning smoking. I wonder what liberties they will restrict next?

I'm done spewing.

dgd
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Re: Puerto Rican new Smoking Law
Culebra, Puerto Rico
Author: Michael (205.246.201.---)
Date:   03-23-07 08:21

I think liberties only should go to a point where they do not hinder others' - as in the liberty to breathe ... IMO people should be allowed to drink themselves to death - even though the secondary cost for society through rising insurance etc etc could be argued - at least I have a choice whether I want to join the party or not.

not so with smoking.

in europe they still are in the 'non smoking section' phase. that's like saying, i spit in your wine and you only drink the part that doesn't have the spit in it (I usually use a different analogy ..)

the problem is, most smokers are addicted and cannot be relied upon to act responsibly towards their fellow breathers.

Enjoy Culebra!

Michael
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Re: Puerto Rican new Smoking Law
Culebra, Puerto Rico
Author: David Dupre (---.sea.siemens.com)
Date:   03-23-07 09:58

Michael,
I agree with the spirit of what you are saying for the most part. These laws are made with good intentions but so is the road to hell. I don't want to breathe anyone else's smoke and, sadly, many smokers tend to be obnoxious about their smoking. I even hold my breathe while I walk through the crowds that now develop at the front of the restaurants. These laws are forcing smokers to exercise more self control by restricting their smoking since they can’t exercise their own by being respectful of others.

We should absolutely expect others to be responsible but do we really need to have a law to force the issue? I have no problem with allowing a bar or restaurant where people are allowed to smoke their brains out. I'm not sure if a loophole allows "private" clubs to do this.

Now I'm venturing off into the more theoretical realm. You are absolutely right that civil liberties don't include actions that are harmful to others. I just believe these laws pass too closely to laws which restrict the way people live and die. Many people choose to ignore the fact that we will all die someday. Since immortality is not an option, the only thing we can wish for is that everyone could choose the manner in which they live and die.

I see very few people making choices that will allow them to live their lives to their fullest potential. Very few people have a lifestyle that includes eating right and exercising in a manner which encourages optimum health. Do people really expect to be able to take a pill to make themselves healthy? Pharmaceutical companies would like you to think so.

I may be alone, but when I think about the “good-old days,” I think back to the 1960’s and 1970s when government was small and there were no laws telling you to wear your helmet or your seatbelt or when you could smoke. It would be foolish not to wear my seatbelt but I don’t think it should be against the law. On the other hand, if someone was a jerk or didn’t respect others, they got their but kicked… Of course, I’m painting a rosy picture of an era and we’ve come a long way from there in many ways.

In short, I’m determined to choose the manner in which I live and I hope to influence the manner in which I die. I don’t want to live in a sanitary plastic bubble. If someone wants to live in a plastic bubble, I believe that’s okay. I take chances every day I get behind the wheel of my automobile, go rock climbing, or go snorkeling or scuba in the wild blue ocean. I don’t want to live in a world where I can’t do those things because I might get hurt.

I'm fed up with frivolous lawsuits and insurance companies dictating laws and public policy and people not taking responsibility for their actions. Laws like this excuse people from being responsible for their actions.

dgd
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Re: Puerto Rican new Smoking Law
Culebra, Puerto Rico
Author: Doug (---.aurorasys.com)
Date:   03-23-07 15:37

"do we really need to have a law to force the issue"

Not if someone can come up with an effective alternative. What do you suggest?

You, yourself, say that some smokers are rude. I find many to be rude, especially in bars. When I smoked, I NEVER lit up when anyone near me was eating. It happens all the time, these days.

Are you suggesting that in order to get back to the good old days we should just handle things ourselves? Kick some butt if they are blowing smoke into my breathing space? Not a very viable policy. But I deserve clean air to breathe nonetheless.

Frankly as someone whose mother, father and brother are all cancer fatalities, I hope the inconvenience helps people decide to kick and spare their loved ones what I went through when they slowly suffocated.

Bar owners are very status quo-ish. Many fear failure if they lose their smoking clientele. I think there is a new customer (me) who previously stayed out of smoky bars for every hard-core nicotine addict who leaves. The only way they bar owners will believe this is to see it work. This law gives them that chance.

Doug
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Re: Puerto Rican new Smoking Law
Culebra, Puerto Rico
Author: richard (---.washdc.east.verizon.net)
Date:   03-23-07 16:08

You do deserve clean air, but it is sort of ridiculous if this extends to an open-air bar at places like Dinghy or Mamacita's.

I smoke and I don't care for it around my food either.

I also understand some of the rationale for these laws is to protect the employees who (indoors) don't have a choice otherwise, more than for the customers who do have a choice. One thing I appreciated about the California law was there was a loophole for 100% employee-owned businesses who chose to allow it.
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Re: Puerto Rican new Smoking Law
Culebra, Puerto Rico
Author: Doug (---.aurorasys.com)
Date:   03-23-07 16:37

I'm open to an alternative solution that allows me to enjoy going to bars without breathing smoke. Incentives to go smoke-free for owners? Tax credits?

Mamacita's doesn't always have a breeze. Smoke tends to hang in still air, so exempting open air bars doesn't always result in no second-hand smoke.

Doug
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Re: Puerto Rican new Smoking Law
Culebra, Puerto Rico
Author: richard (---.washdc.east.verizon.net)
Date:   03-24-07 02:34

I get your point, and I like the idea of an incentive based system utilizing both owner and customer preference.

'course I also realize that prob. won't work in a place the size of C.

I lived in CA for 10 years, DC has a similar law now and it seems like all my friends have small children so I'm used to stepping outside, heck I don't even smoke in my own house unless the SO is out of town.
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Re: Puerto Rican new Smoking Law
Culebra, Puerto Rico
Author: Peter Bowden (---.nycap.res.rr.com)
Date:   03-24-07 08:16

Hey, smokers have had their day. Now it's time to give the rest of us
a chance to enjoy life without the smokescreen smokers have inflicted
on the rest of us since the dawn of time. I'm still amazed that people
were ever allowed to smoke on airplanes! I don't miss that at all.

I do find it sad however that the government chooses to punish cigarette
addicts for their sad state than to go after the cigarette companies for
their evil campaign to spread their poison among our youth. If the world
made any sense at all, the manufacture of cigarettes would be banned.
Of course then who would write all those juicy check to our politicians.
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Re: Puerto Rican new Smoking Law
Culebra, Puerto Rico
Author: Michael (---.ny5030.east.verizon.net)
Date:   03-24-07 09:51

It's a tough call.

Just as the political theory of anarchy is a great idea, there is a reason the term turned into a pejorative.

I used to live on a boat, without health insurance, sailing across oceans, relying completely on myself and my partner and plan to resume that lifestyle very soon.

The question is, is that feasible for the majority?

Do you own stocks? Are you happy and feel pretty smart when they go up? Are snack makers among them? Do you feel responsible for people who have diabetes? No, of course not , they don't have to eat that garbage ...

It is impossible to live in any kind of bubble. Whether it is the plastic, overprotected one or the self righteous one.

Some people think, what right does this guy have to blow smoke in my face and some people think what right does this guy have to get on an airplane, car or whatever and use my (I am sitting in a third world country now) resources when I cannot even feed my children.

The interesting thing about laws is, that we all agree to abide by them. It always amazes me how few people vote in this country, because it is about their bubble and what it will look like that they can decide.

My feeling is that the niches that I enjoy living in are getting smaller. I guess other ones are opening up. I just might not see them or I got so mainstream that they do not seem like an option.

Enjoy Culebra!

Michael
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Re: Puerto Rican new Smoking Law
Culebra, Puerto Rico
Author: richard (---.washdc.east.verizon.net)
Date:   03-24-07 14:51

Hey Peter, don't forget the lawyers who get paid whether the lawsuits win or lose...

re: smoking on planes, after banning smoking they dropped the number of required air recirculations. I always thought w/o a partition it was ridiculous and arbitrary, but that they were allowed to then reduce the amount of fresh air and increase the odds of catching someone else's flu was just as silly.

on a craven and selfish note, they (the smoking seats) were a way of avoiding bawling children that were really too young to fly.
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Re: Puerto Rican new Smoking Law
Culebra, Puerto Rico
Author: MJ (---.prtc.net)
Date:   03-25-07 04:02

Huh...contrary to the flow here, every non-smoker I know personally (including restaurant owners) on Culebra feels the law as applied here is ridiculous and unnecessary. Maybe we just have a different mind-set on who should be telling us what to do or not, which is why we live here in the first place. Yeah, maybe it's that...
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Re: Puerto Rican new Smoking Law
Culebra, Puerto Rico
Author: Peter Bowden (---.nycap.res.rr.com)
Date:   03-25-07 06:25

So, you've enslaved yourself to the carefully crafted nicotine
delivery system devised by by a huge corporation and then
you want to hold yourself up as a pillar of freedom and
self-determination.

You want to remain free to be enslaved to a large corporation
and want to extend that freedom to include forcing the rest of
us to endure your slow motion suicide as you indulge in public.

It is your addiction making this argument since it makes no sense.
I know, I've been there. If you want a taste of freedom..quit.
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Re: Puerto Rican new Smoking Law
Culebra, Puerto Rico
Author: MJ (---.prtc.net)
Date:   03-25-07 07:14

Well...I do understand and agree with part of your post. Frankly, if I were to chose a large corporation to be enslaved to it would more preferable if it were some sushi food chain (rather than the fairly despicable cigarette makers), but then we get into overfishing, water pollution and those darn whales. Or maybe a vineyard? Oh rats, alcoholism..guess that leaves PETA? I don't think so, they have very large teeth and scare me.
I don't hold myself up as a pillar of freedom and self-determination, my back isn't that good. I just like what we had...a place where if you want to screw yourself up, you could, if you want to be a pillar of righteousness, you could. If you want to be an adult and make adult choices aware of the consequences (as for smoking, I mean considerate smoking, but I'm encompassing a bit more), then that was fine.
I've had a taste of freedom (beside the quitting smoking for 10 years, then 5), it was called Culebra. I want it back.
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Re: Puerto Rican new Smoking Law
Culebra, Puerto Rico
Author: Peter Bowden (---.nycap.res.rr.com)
Date:   03-25-07 07:50

Well, nobody's telling you you have to quit smoking.

Look at it this way, now the majority (non-smokers)
have taken over the right to define what "considerate
smoking" means rather than leaving it up to smokers.

I'd be happy to sit down with a cocktail and a couple of
fine cuban cigars with you MJ but a cigarette...no, they're
just evil.
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Re: Puerto Rican new Smoking Law
Culebra, Puerto Rico
Author: MJ (---.prtc.net)
Date:   03-25-07 17:38

Good thing no one is telling me I HAVE to quit...they may find themselves with a cigarette in their mouth and no alternative but to breathe in...oh wait, I'm all mellow peace and love, forget I wrote that!
Yep...non-smokers have taken over. So has Bush.
When I was in 10th grade, I got kicked out of a Communism vs. Capitalism class for saying there didn't need to be a war in the US, just slip out the freedoms one by one over a period of time, as long as there was a pheasant under glass available at the take out deli and two SUV's in every garage, it could be done in 30 years. Ok, I said a chicken in every pot and a car in the driveway...it WAS a long time ago. Luckily, I had a Dean who liked me, and let me write it up in a thesis. I got an A. The teacher retired early. Little bon mots of justice to keep me going...
But here we are, about right on time, Americans living rather nonchalantly with flashing signs on their roads saying to report suspicious behaviour (OH DEAR, was that a 13 year old in that car and that woman was SMOKING?????? CALL 911!!! Lucky for us, 911 won't bring the cops - yet).
I'd be happy to sit down with a cocktail and you can stink up the air with your pretty (ILLEGAL!!! CALL DEA!!!) cee-gar and I'll have my cig (I always wanted to do something evil, a life long fantasy)_..but we'll have to do that on the ferry dock...because your cigars are SCHMOKE.
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Re: Puerto Rican new Smoking Law
Culebra, Puerto Rico
Author: David Dupre (---.sea.siemens.com)
Date:   03-26-07 14:10

Don't worry MJ... If someone reports your suspicious behavior, you can just file a discrimination suit if you can claim to be a member of some sort of minority or you are not an American Citizen. That seems to work pretty well these days. These thread has melted into a heap of fuming slag...
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Re: Puerto Rican new Smoking Law
Culebra, Puerto Rico
Author: MJ (---.prtc.net)
Date:   03-26-07 15:27

Gosh, and I thought I was being amusing in the face of distress! Fuming slag...is that a miner thing (that would be miner with the lights and coal, but a play on words that may also not make your hit parade)?
A discrimination suit? Would I have to go all the way to Fajardo? My minority is so small, I wonder at times if we exist - and since you don't get it (fuming slag indeed! I've been called so many things...*sob*), how could I expect anyone else to? Peter got it, even if we vehemently disagree. I'd have a cocktail he paid for anytime...in the fresh air of all God's glory!
The beauty of Culebra is that suspicious behaviour is usually just considered...well...normal. So far.
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Re: Puerto Rican new Smoking Law
Culebra, Puerto Rico
Author: Peter Bowden (---.nycap.res.rr.com)
Date:   03-26-07 17:00

Fuming slag? Isn't that a byproduct of refining metals?

So MJ, you and I are the equivalent of the byproduct
of refinement. Boy, that sounds good to me considering
some of the things I've been called in the past. "The Embodiment
of Evil on Earth" was one that left me breathless years ago
when I was still foolish enought to bother with "philosophical"
arguments ;>)

Now I'm far more pragmatic but politics can still
get me going. Even that is starting to loose it's luster these days.
It's like shooting fish in a barrel but stiil no one seems to be listening.

I'm sure a cocktail shared with MJ would be a cocktail well enjoyed.
Salut!
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Re: Puerto Rican new Smoking Law
Culebra, Puerto Rico
Author: MJ (---.prtc.net)
Date:   03-26-07 17:10

"Embodiment of Evil"????? I'LL buy the cocktail! Salut!
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Re: Puerto Rican new Smoking Law
Culebra, Puerto Rico
Author: David Dupre (---.sea.siemens.com)
Date:   03-26-07 18:48

When is a minority too small?

I apologize for the unfamiliar metaphor. I believe I understand your comments just fine but I think you do not understand mine. Unfortunately, the "byproduct" of metal refining consists of everything that is left over (oxides, impurities, etc.). By using the phrase "fuming slag," I was thinking more along the lines of what is left in the debris of an explosion when all of the metal and junk is melted and fused together. However, I hate to disappoint you but I wasn't referring to either of you with my metaphor. I'm just not that mean-spirited. I was just admiring how this topic "exploded" into something else.

I think I'm the only one who actually crossed over into "taboo" territory with my comments on discrimination suits. By the way, that was an allusion to a reoccurring theme in recent events. I don't apologize for those comments but if it upsets you, I suppose you can call it fuming slag.

MJ, I enjoyed your comments on Communism vs. Capitalism. That is basically what I've been saying since the beginning of this topic.
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Re: Puerto Rican new Smoking Law
Culebra, Puerto Rico
Author: Michael (---.ny5030.east.verizon.net)
Date:   03-27-07 10:09

I do enjoy these threads - I must admit!
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Re: Puerto Rican new Smoking Law
Culebra, Puerto Rico
Author: richard (---.res.east.verizon.net)
Date:   03-27-07 16:17

I think what we've learned is that it's unfortunate that "FLAMING SLAG" is too long for a custom license plate.

wouldn't it be nice.
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Re: Puerto Rican new Smoking Law
Culebra, Puerto Rico
Author: Peter Bowden (---.nycap.res.rr.com)
Date:   03-27-07 18:11

...and we all have a cool new metaphor
thanks to David. Thanks David, I can't wait
to turn it loose ;>)
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